2000 points limited.

[emptyhat]

Ok, so here's an attempt at writing a friendly, fun, but effective Wood Elves list for 8th. These guys will probably be playing on a 6x4 with a reasonable amount of forest.

Lords
Spellweaver, level 4 wizard, longbow 225 points

Lords----225

Heroes

Core

24 Glade Guard, musician, standard bearer, trueflight arrows. 350 points

24 Glade Guard, musician, standard bearer, trueflight arrows. 350 points

8 Glade Riders, trueflight arrows. 176 points

20 Eteranl Guard, eternal warden, musician, standard bearer, shields. 270 points

Core---1146

Special
10 Wardancers. 150 points

10 Sisters of the Thorn, handmaiden, musician, standard bearer. 290 points

5 Wild Riders. 120 points.


So that comes out as 1941 points so far but without magic items for the lord or magical standards for anyone.

They'll end up facing armies built out of my collection, so 2k of Skaven, Vampire Counts, Lizardmen or High Elves. Not sure if I have 2k of Brets and they are pretty hard to top up at this point.

[flamingkillamajig]

Trueflight arrows aren't the only arrows people used back when 8th fantasy was a thing. God it's been like a year and a half since i last played and i didn't play wood elves. I'm pretty sure sisters of thorn were good but much like dark elves people took a mounted hero with magic resistance (2) and added them to the unit. This made it so when an opponent cast a spell at a unit that did straight up damage you went from the basic 4+ ward save to a 2+ ward save vs magical spells. Ward truly never saw this coming and for some reason those sisters of thorn and the dark elf warlocks were really good. Not sure the best load-outs for arrows. I know people used the ones that were flaming with a damage boost vs disorder units as they tended to have more regeneration in their armies (vampire counts, skaven, greenskins, etc.). People also used to give their horse units the flaming banner so they could take it monster or troll killing.

I wish i could give advice. I heard them talk about some sort of 'acorn' that let you pop out more woods from your buttocks and an item that let your unit teleport between various forests. Was rather annoying and a lot of this was stupid. Trueflight arrows avoiding all negative modifiers in BS shooting for instance. Seriously you could have skirmishers behind a building at long range after an opponent moved and shot their trueflight arrows and they'd still shoot like a heat seeking missile. Normally that's a -5 to BS so even BS 4 or higher elves wouldn't do much. I can even top that out with using shadow magnet trinket (extra -1 to BS shots at unit) and the storm banner (-2 to BS shooting for the enemy). That'd be a grand hilarious total of -8 to BS shots and keep in mind in Fantasy 8th edition if your shots were too horrible you couldn't shoot at all (i think it was a 10+ to hit or worse than a 6 followed by a 6 just to hit).

If i recall wood elves also had waystalkers which if i recall sounded pretty good and they gave them poisoned shots because their BS was pretty absurd even for elves and probably would make 40k players blush if there wasn't so many negative modifiers for BS shooting. As far as durability goes it was paper thin ala Dark Eldar in Fantasy but in Fantasy it wasn't as big of a deal which is why wood elves did so well (when re-vamped anyway).

A rule of thumb for 8th Fantasy is that most BS shooting sucked, poisoned was good for monsters and similar and war machine shooting was good for everything else. It wasn't entirely the case but it was generally the case. If you had shooting infantry it was sometimes used to kill chaff units but less the case if they piled on the negative modifiers.

Considering wood elves i'd say stick to the forests or behind them as the negative modifiers to enemy BS shooting would pile on. Generally magic was the better counter to wood elves to a degree but it's not always there. In 8th Fantasy it was likely to deny magic unlike psychic phase in 40k so getting everything you wanted was hard and i'd generally recommend against it. Pinning down wood elves is super hard and was generally tough for my Skaven. They were the last army book before End Times and then AoS so i didn't get to fight wood elves enough (though i wasn't thrilled to fight them for more than practice).

The best way to kill wood elves far as i know was war machines. If a wood elf army faced dwarfs and killed their war machines and gyrocopters it'd essentially be 'all she wrote'. Not to say dwarfs do well otherwise (they are static gun-line in 8th and never forget it). As wood elves you have move and fire weapons that out-range handgun weapons so armies like empire or dwarfs have to make sure their war machines, gyrocopters, etc. live or else they lose. Melee armies have trouble unless they can fly or are mounted (beastmen sucked anyway).

Not sure what else to say. If you need help i can give you some advice but i'm not sure how much help i could be as a non-wood elf player. I had a friend that used to play them competitively online but i haven't heard from him in probably over a year which is a shame.

[emptyhat]

Ok, so if I was building a core for 2000 points how would this look? It only adds up to 986 points so far but the Storm Vermin could get a magic item and magic standard.


Clanrats 48 Shields Hand Weapons Musician Standard Bearer Clawleader Poisoned Wind Mortar 301
Clanrats 40 Spears Musician Standard Bearer Clawleader Warpfire Thrower 270
Stormvermin 40 Shields Musician Standard Bearer Fangleader Warpfire Thrower 415

[emptyhat]

This list is based on the VC units I already own (need to paint most of them though) It currently clocks in at 1881 without magic items or Vampiric powers)

Lords
Master Necromancer 165

Heroes
Vampire Level 2 Wizard 140
Vampire Level 2 Wizard 140
Tomb Banshee 95


Core
Skeleton Warriors 40 Champion, Musician, Standar Bearer 230
Skeleton Warriors 20 Spears, Champion, Standar Bearer 120
Crypt Ghouls 29 290

Special
Vargheists 3 138
Vargheists 3 138
Hexwraiths 5 150

Rare
Cairn Wraiths 5 Tomb Banshee 275

[Long John Silver]

What about summoning? Would you need extra skellies and zombie models to summon in game?

[flamingkillamajig]

The answer to your question chem is: yes. That's why there's often a pile with a much larger pile coming later. Of course only skeletons and zombies can sprout out of nothing and maybe be increased beyond starting size (more rare with skeletons). The other guys can only be regenerated back to a full strength unit. The stupid OP end times nagash lore allowed somebody to summon stupid powered undead out of the realms of some creepy weirdo's basement.

[emptyhat]

Actually any of your Vampires can spend 10 points of their vampire power budget to get Summon Creatures of the Night, which lets them increase the size of Dire Wolves, Bat Swarms and Fell Bats beyond the unit's starting size.

And as FKM said, anyone can boost zombies past the starting size with the right spell, but only a Necromancer with the upgrade can do that to skeletons and you can only have the upgrade on one necromancer.

[emptyhat]

Ok, I have a bunch of mostly painted HE for 2k now so I think I'll briefly switch to painting 2k worth of VC to use against them. Here is a speculative list based on what I have available:

Lords:
Vampire Lord: Heavy Armour, Enchanted Shield, Talisman of Protection, Sword of Strife, Red Fury, Quickblood, Level 4 lore of vampires.
496 points

Statwise the vamp lord is M6 WS7 BS 5 S5 T5 W3 I7 A5 LD 10 and the vampire gifts are giving them first strike and an extra attack for each unsaved wound the vamp causes in close combat. The sword is giving +2 attacks (so 7 attacks), and the heavy armour and magic shield is providing a 3+ armour save with the talisman granting a 4+ ward save so I think she should be pretty mean in combat and hard to remove. The spell levels might give her something to do en route to the fight but should probably be pulled and the points spent elsewhere, that said I 'd like to at least try a dummy game vs HE with a super buff vampire lord.

Heroes:

Necromancer level 2, lore of vampires

Necromance level 1, lore of vampires on a nightmare

Tomb Banshee
Tomb Banshee

Core:

29 Ghouls (Vamp Lord will probably lead these)

21 Skeleton Spears: FC
20 Skeleton Warriors: SB+Champ
20 Skeleton Warriors: SB+Champ

(This leaves me with 13 skeletons and 40 zombies to summon to the table getting more core is probably next on the purchse list, that or a Terrorgheist mmmm Terrorgheist)

Specials
3 Varghiests: Vargoyle
3 Varghiests: Vargoyle

Rare Units
Varghulf

It all comes out as 2002 points.

Other models that aren't in use: 5 hexwraiths which needs some repairs, some the cairn wraith models I have 4?, 2 banshees, and a Black Coach which will take a while to get built), a Wight King, and a bunch of other vampires (maybe 6?), and a spare necromancer on foot.

[flamingkillamajig]

I actually don't like your list empty. As somebody said before and i later agreed with. Don't take any level 2 or level 1 wizards in a 2k points list (or was that 2.5k points?). They become irrelevant in those battles as when a level 4 wizard counters them it takes much higher rolls to win your magic casting. This isn't 7th ed 40k and about half your spells will be blocked in any game. Magic is random but normally ya got to block the small powers as when somebody 6 dices a spell it usually miscasts and goes off irresistibly and so can't be blocked.

You lack any real hitting power units in here (no grave guard or crypt horror). I realize you'd say vargheists could do it but generally people use them for war machine killing. The issue with vargheists is the low leadership combined with frenzy. All vampiric units other than vampires and vampire lords have frenzy. You're going to have to keep them from randomly charging nearby enemies and with fly the charge distance becomes rather high meaning an opponent can bait them out without you being allowed to hold them back. Look up frenzy checks under the frenzy special rule. You might want to keep a BSB and general near the vargheists during set up at least so that they don't all randomly charge stupid things early on.

Most people put their leaders in command units so that somebody doesn't just murder a person's leader in their super death killy unit. Ghouls aren't really a killy unit but they're slightly better. Keep in mind this is super important as if your general dies you will lose a lot of guys esp. in low leadership units and this is a good way to lose ethereal units (low leadership and low wounds). Also being that 'lore of vampires' is mostly a augment and hex magic lore (barring maybe 2 spells) it may be best to get good units you can boost your army with. In case you don't know i'll tell you the major lores you get with your magic users. Death is mostly anti-character or anti-lone models (exception being purple sun), shadow is mostly leadership based and hex based and i already told you about lore of vampires.

I'm unsure what to think of small skele units but i think they cost too much and dire wolves are better chaff. That said a low cost unit hitting some cavalry in the flank tends to go a long way to screw somebody's combat resolution (3-4 ranks, flank, charge, etc.). I do a similar thing with skaven-slaves with some effectiveness as a form of chaff and it works but usually people take a unit of 30 skeletons as a command bunker for their lord.

Most people say it's best for Vampires and vampire lords to go either killy or magic spammy but not both because they become really expensive. In my opinion your general might be better off not in the thick of the fight as if he dies your game will start to go bottom up for you. I realize you'll say any hero or lord with vampire lore can control after the first crumbling but it will still do significant damage to nice units (vampiric units are immune i think) but without your level 4 you'll be in trouble. Also you don't really have a lot of front line units here. You're not spending enough on those units and spending too much on heroes instead. Comically you will probably be outnumbered and most undead armies outnumber their opponents much like skaven.

Varghulf is over-costed supposedly.

[emptyhat]

Eh, well it's a list based on what I have rather than a tournament list. That said:

VC are different for the low level wizard rule. You do want to have a few spare low level casters to use the signature spell of Lore of Vampires. Having the spell levels on the Vamp General and the killy isn't exactly ideal because of the big fat reward for killing her however. Lvl 4 Vamp lord rolls for powers and gets 4 out of 6 of the Lore powers, any duplicate rolls allow free choice, I believe. If you roll raise dead you swap it out for Invocation. The master of the dead necromancer (lvl 2) rolls for spells and probably gets raise dead and then swaps the spare for Invocation. The level one necromancer is going to take Invocation. You probably ended up with some scary spells on the level 4, Curse of Years and Wind of Death that can tease out dispel die. But to be honest the two spells you want to be casting on the lower level necromancers are: Invocation cast on 6+/12/18 which is fairly easy to set off and Raise Dead cast on 9+/14 and with the models I have I probably want the 9+ Zombie version.

In a pinch the Vargheists can be sent into the enemy wizard's unit to slay them, though I just got 10 Dire Wolves which might be a good addition for that role. Which brings us onto core.

From what I can tell VC as a 'horde army' doesn't often mean starting out with more models than your enemy, especially not vs other hordes like Skaven. Zombies are 3 points a model, Skellies are 5, DWolves are 8. I've heard all maligned as being overcosted. Crypt Ghouls are 10 points. From what I've heard, and something you've mentioned too, the VC horde is largely the ability to bring the horde after the game starts. Raise up ridiculous zombies and skeletons for numbers, tarpits, redirects.

The Skeleton units I have might be a bit small right now, though Master of the dead on the Lvl 2 (not ideal) can increase the size of those units. But as is they provide some table control as defensive units and can also act as bunkers for the casters. Though that said I stuck the super V Lord in the ghoul unit, which is the one that can somewhat fight.

Speaking of fighting, yes the army can be seen as lacking hard hitters, though the Vamp lord does put out a lot of S5 attacks and can heal herself off of the wounds she does.The Vargheist are also S5 of course and so is the Varghulf, whereas the Crypt Horrors (which I do not have models for) are S4As are graveguard (which I do not have models for) that don't have great weapons; and I think that once you trade out the shields for great weapons on a 12 point special unit that is going to need numbers then you start to have to invest points in them to make them a unit that can survive to deliver those hits. I would like to get some GG at some point but I don't think that will be in the next round of expansion.

Returning to the issue of Heros and Lords: I do have a bad distribution there, based on model availability and what is painted. The banshees don't do well against Elves without LoShadows help and my LVL 4 is compelled to be LoVampires, but they are painted. They'd be the first thing I'd change though, freeing up points for a second level on that one necromancer and points to make them item carriers for scrolls and junk. Splitting the Lords choices into a level 4 caster and a very killy vampire is pretty difficult at this points level because of the 25% restriction.I do know that Necromancers can choose between Lore of Vamps and Lore of Death and the Vampires can pick between Death, Vamps and Shadows, OR any one of the 8 battle lores if they take the vamp power Forbidden Lore.

As for what might be available in the future. I just got 10 Dire Wolves, and I have some old school skellies on the way, 16 I think. For my next purchases I think I'll buy either 2 boxes of Zombies, or one of the Start Collecting boxes.

[emptyhat]

So FKM was talking to me on Steam about how a vampire lord general should shirk combat and hide. I was maintaining that although risky for the army a killy Vamp Lord general could still be quite potent in a fight and that in this smallish 2K list the one I've got, while it has a big target of victory points and a fair bit of potential damage from a crumbling army if it went down, is pretty potent.



So FKM said, what if a Skaven with the Fellblade came for a little one on one. So we checked it out. The Skaven in question is a Warlord using all of its magic points budget for the sword and has the mundane upgrades that FKM picked out for it: Heavy armour, shield, war litter. It weighs in at 228 points. The fellblade is actually a pretty scary sword, S10, forces re-rolls on successful ward saves, and every wound becomes D6 wounds.

Skaven Warlord: WS 6 BS3 S10 T4 W3 I7 A4 LD7 3+
War Litter: WS 4 BS- S4 T- W- I5 A4 LD-
FellBlade: S10, re-roll ward saves, wounds are D6.

In our blood red corner we have the Vampire Lord as she was presented in this list. She comes in at 496 points although 105 of them are for magic levels that won't be being used in this fight. Statwise the vamp lord is M6 WS7 BS 5 S5 T5 W3 I7 A5 LD 10 and the vampire gifts are giving them first strike and an extra attack for each unsaved wound the vamp causes in close combat. The sword is giving +2 attacks (so 7 attacks), and the heavy armour and magic shield is providing a 3+ armour save with the talisman granting a 4+ ward save.

Each round is going to go like this:
Vamp attacking:
• Rolls to hit 3+ re-rolls
• Rolls to wound 3+
• Skaven Save 5+

Skaven Attacks:
• Rolls to hit 4+
• Rolls to Wound 2+
• Vampire Save - Ward save of 4 re-roll successful.
Litter Attacks:
• Rolls to hit 4+
• Rolls to Wound 5+
• Vampire Save 4+ Ward save of 4+

It looks like the Vampire has to kill the Skaven before it can attack her because that sword is just so dangers once it gets an unsaved wound, fortunately she has equal initiative and ASF. I rolled 10 fights to see how it would turn out.

Battle1: Vampire rolls to attack: 1,1,2,2,2,2,4. Re-rolls 2,4,5,5,6,6. Rolls to wound: 2,4,4,5,5,5. Skaven Saves (5+): 2,3,3,3,6. Skaven is killed

Battle2: Vampire rolls to attack: 4,4,5,5,5,6,6. Rolls to wound: 1,2,2,3,3,4,6. Skaven Saves (5+): 1,2,3,6. Skaven is Killed

Battle3:Vampire rolls to attack: 1,1,3,4,4,5,6 Re-rolls 2,5 Rolls to wound: 1,1,2,3,4,6 Skaven Saves (5+): 1,4,4 Skaven is killed

Battle4:Vampire rolls to attack: 1,1,1,3,4,6,6. Re-rolls 3,4,5 Rolls to wound: 1,2,4,4,4,6,6 Skaven Saves (5+): 2,3,4,5,6. Skaven is killed

Battle5:Vampire rolls to attack: 1,2,2,3,5,6,6 Re-rolls 1,1,5 Rolls to wound: 1,2,2,2,5 Skaven Saves (5+): 5. Skaven Attacks Back! 1,1,2,3. Litter Attacks: 1,2,5,5. Rolls to wound: 3,6. Vampire rolls to save 2. Rolls Ward Save: 6. Round 2. Vampire rolls to attack: 1,2,3,4,4,5,6 Re-rolls 3,4 Rolls to wound: 1,1,1,2,4,4,4 Skaven Saves (5+): 1,2,4 Skaven is Killed

Battle6:Vampire rolls to attack: 1,1,1,2,4,5,5 Re-rolls 2,3,5,5 Rolls to wound: 1,2,2,2,3,5 Skaven Saves (5+): 1,4. Extra Attacks roll to hit: 5,5. Roll to wound: 6,6. Skaven Saves (5) 2,4. Skaven is Killed

Battle7:Vampire rolls to attack: 1,2,3,3,3,4,4 Re-rolls 4,6 Rolls to wound: 1,1,3,3,4,6,6 Skaven Saves (5+): 1,2,4,6,6 Skaven is killed

Battle8:Vampire rolls to attack: 1,1,2,3,4,4,5 Re-rolls: 3,4,6 Rolls to wound: 4,4,4,5,5,6,6. Skaven Saves (5+): 2,2,3,3,4,5,5 Skaven is killed

Battle9:Vampire rolls to attack: 1,1,2,3,4,4,5 Re-rolls 1,3,6 Rolls to wound: 2,3,3,3,5,6 Skaven Saves (5+): 2,3,3,4,6 Skaven is killed

Battle10:Vampire rolls to attack: 1,2,3,4,5,6,6 Re-rolls: 4,4 Rolls to wound: 3,3,4,5,5,5,6 Skaven Saves (5+): 2,3,4,6,6,6,6 Skaven is killed.

With 7 attacks that are hitting 75% of the time and wounds at 50% and only 1/3 saves the Skaven is really likely to lose wounds and if it loses two out of three wounds it has to suffer two more attacks which provide a nice bit of insurance. The Warlord is really relying on the Vampire flubbing a lot of rolls.

Of course this is in a big vacuum with neither unit gaining any support and the Vampire isn't casting her spells but it appears that she is carrying this deathmatch.

[flamingkillamajig]

Yeah as i said the warlord with this kit is better as a monster killer (aside from daemon princes). I tend not to use the build lately but it's a really fun sword. It's probably the best weapon in the game. Shame the points cost is so high preventing any other gear to be taken.

Realistically it could roll over a steam tank though which is quite impressive. Initiative checks would probably be the more effective outcome however.

[emptyhat]

As you said, once you heard the reult of the first 6 battles

Other than painting some ghouls and having a bunch of WIP Elves I decided to crack open my HE dragon box and built a Dragon Mage of Caledor. So I wrote a quick list that uses them.

Lords
Archmage lvl 4, talisman of preservation, Book of Hoeth 320


Heroes
Dragon Mage Lvl 2, Dragon Armour                              395


Core
Ellyrian Reavers 5 Bows & Spears                                  95
Ellyrian Reavers 5 Bows & Spears                                  95
Spearelves 29 Sentinel                                               271
Lothern Seaguard 10 Shields                                       120

Special

Phoenix Guard 20 Fcom, Banner of Eternal Flame         340

Rares
Flamespyre Phoenix                                                   225
Eagle Claw Bolt Thrower                                               70
Eagle Claw Bolt Thrower                                               70


It would probably be better to have more Seaguard in the unit than the Eagle Claws but right now I don't have the models for that..

[emptyhat]

The first list here has a theme for using lots of Kroxigors for the Troll Kroxigor showdown that will happen someday, it also has a Temple construction crew sort of feel. The second list is more about having a muscly Carnosaur Lord with a bunch of butch Saurus. 

Lords
Slann Mage-Priest Higher State, In Unfathomable Presence, Sword of Bloodshed, Crown of Command 485

Core
Skink Cohort 24 3 Kroxigors 270
Skink Cohort 24 3 Kroxigors 270
Skink Cohort 24 3 Kroxigors 270

Special
Stegadon Unstoppable Stampede 225
Stegadon Unstoppable Stampede 225

Rare
Salamander Hunting Pack 3 3 extra skink handlers 252


List 2
Lords
Saurus Oldblood Great Weapon, armour of destiny
Carnosaur, loping stride, bloodroar 456

Heroes
Skink Priest Lvl 2, dispel scroll 125
Skink Priest Lvl 2, feedback scroll 150

Core
Saurus Warriors 20 Spawn Leader 230
Saurus Warriors 20 Spawn Leader 230
Skink Skirmishers 10 70

Special
Terradon Riders 3 105
Terradon Riders 4 140
Stegadon Unstoppable Stampede, Sharp Horns 245
Stegadon Unstoppable Stampede, Sharp Horns 245

[centrsnabkalge]

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